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Ponycar
F L I N T O I D
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The police did what they were trained to do. They responded to the threat of death or serious bodily harm with deadly force. Their response was driven by the subjects actions.
Pepper spray is used on a passive, or active resistor, not an assaultive subject with the obvious intent to inflict death or serious bodily harm. This is per the use of force continuum that bossman is talking about. I don't think baton strikes would have been appropriate either. Assuming that the Flint police use ASP expandable batons, most officers carry a 21 or 26 inch baton on their duty belt. Within that 21 or 26 inches is closer than I want a knife wielding subject with the obvious intnet to cut me to be. Shooting someone in the leg is considered to be deady force too.It wasn't too long ago when an NFL star died from being shot in the leg due to his femural artery being severed and bleeding to death. |
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A government big enough to give you everything is also powerful enough to take it all away. |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:46 am |
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Demeralda
F L I N T O I D
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| I don't care what people are "trained" to do. Soldiers are trained to kill, that doesn't mean they get to kill indiscriminantly. We have brains. We have souls. We have reason. These are the skills to use when confronted with a situation we're not familiar with, not "kill 'em all let god sort 'em out." |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:36 am |
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Public D
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
scrwedinflint schreef:
These officers should get a medal as far as I'm concerned. They did their job exactly the way you they were trained.
I couldn't agree more, Screwflint.
Our glorious boys in blue, shining examples to all public servants, heros of all Flint children, standing at attention as our Mayor prepares to pin medals of honor on their swelling chests. They mistake the pins for deadly weapons and our Mayor for a deranged geezer. They do as they're trained. Hagler and Leyton look at each other. Their heads explode. |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:41 am |
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Ponycar
F L I N T O I D
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Police did everything right according to everything that I've read about this case. She refused to comply with their verbal commands to put the knife down, and advanced on officers making slashing motions with the knife ( a deadly weapon). Again, officer response based on the subject actions. These officers were well within the guidelines of the use of force continuum before using deadly force. That is why they are not being charged.
A deadly weapon by the continuum is anything that can a) cut, or break skin b) render unconscious c) extend reach or, d) break bones. That means if someone threatens police with a stick, 2x4, knife,razor,boxcutter, etc, deadly force is authorized if that subject shows intent, opportunity, and capability to inflict death or serious bodily harm with it, like this lady obviously did by advancing on officers and making slashing motions and even coming within 5 feet of the officers. |
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A government big enough to give you everything is also powerful enough to take it all away. |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:59 am |
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Demeralda
F L I N T O I D
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| I guess all you care about is procedure. I care about LIFE. Why is that so hard to understand? |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:21 am |
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Ponycar
F L I N T O I D
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| What about the lives of the officers who were at risk? |
_________________
A government big enough to give you everything is also powerful enough to take it all away. |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:12 pm |
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Demeralda
F L I N T O I D
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| There's the rub -- I don't believe they were. |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:11 pm |
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Bossman
F L I N T O I D
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| Just because somebody is walking toward an officer with a knife, making slashing motions, and disobeying commands at gunpoint to drop the knife doesn't mean they intend to actually hurt the officer. I guess the police should always wait until they are actually stabbed or cut so they can be sure their lives were really in danger. Sheesh...whatever! |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:37 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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I am pretty sure their are a couple of posters who would not be the least bit upset if the bitty little gal had got one of the cops eyes or carotid artery. after all as one poster has stated the cops were in the "
brazen act of deadly pig  hissy-fitting
" they probably think they had it coming. Pig I thought that went out in the 60s.  |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:08 pm |
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Demeralda
F L I N T O I D
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Hyperbole at its best, "bossman".
Eyewitness accounts do not indicate that she was trying to hurt the officers.
She was little, drunk, likely with some sort of mental illness. May no family member of yours meet the same fate.
More than anything, I'd argue that she's dead because she's "poor white trash". Socioeconomics has everything to do with it.
I suppose you think that the mentally ill kid who died of dehydration had it coming too. He refused jail guards' orders and was fully restrained for up to 23 hours a day. But hey, that's what they're trained to do, right? Problem prisoners?
If "training" is your only criteria, then you might as well find some trained monkeys to work as guards. Theoretically, we're capable of higher reasoning. Funny how it works when it's a cop's buddy getting busted on a DUI. All of a sudden the "training" doesn't apply. |
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Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:15 pm |
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scrwedinflint
F L I N T O I D
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[quote="Demeralda"]
Eyewitness accounts do not indicate that she was trying to hurt the officers.
She was little, drunk, likely with some sort of mental illness. May no family member of yours meet the same fate.
More than anything, I'd argue that she's dead because she's "poor white trash". Socioeconomics has everything to do with it.
quote]
First, I would like to congratulate you on surpassing Public D's level of ignorance, your parents must be proud.
You said that eyewitness accounts indicate that she wasn't trying to "hurt" the officers. What exactly is ones intent when coming at a police officer with a knife? Better yet, how are you qualified to diagnose the woman with "some sort of mental illness"?
You sound like a typical liberal bed wetter. People like you are the problem in todays society. It's not her fault she was coming at the police with a knife because she was drunk, poor and "likely with some sort of mental illness"? Give me a break! When did it become ok for people to no longer take responsibility for their actions/decisions? The world runs much better when people like you stick to what your good at, hugging trees and saving whales.
In closing, what you said about it being a matter of "Socioeconomic" and that she's dead because she was "poor white trash" can't possibly be true because half of Flint would be gunned down by the police if that were the case. Therefore, your arguement holds no water whatsoever. |
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Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:04 am |
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scrwedinflint
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Demeralda schreef:
I guess all you care about is procedure. I care about LIFE. Why is that so hard to understand?
Unfortunately, you care about the wrong persons life. I have a hunch that you wouldn't be even a little upset if that drunk killed both of the officers. Fact is, you're a hypocrite. You have no regard for the officers lives only the criminals. It's funny, people like you are ungrateful that we even have officers in this world that are willing to put their lives between you and people that are up to no good. If you're so upset with the way these officers handled the situation, how about you put a uniform on and confront the knife wielding drunks? Better yet, take some time and try to complete a thought. |
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Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:15 am |
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Demeralda
F L I N T O I D
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Hey, arrest her, let her go to prison, that's the responsibility she can take.
I guess by your estimation she deserved the death penalty. You seem to take pleasure in a person's death. Your hunches about my beliefs are baseless and ridiculous. I don't rejoice in any death -- I don't believe any death was necessary here.
You can accuse me of a lot of things: liberal, bleeding heart, emotion over logic, but you cannot claim I am ignorant. Nor is Public D. I guess if people disagree with you, that's all you have left? Pathetic.
I have an ivy league caliber education. Just because you have poor logic and don't understand my example, well, that's no reflection on me, but YOU.
I never suggested that police go around gunning down poor people. DUH DUH DUH. What I would suggest is that if the same incident happened in Flushing, in front of a million dollar mansion, I bet she would not have ended up dead.
All evidence supports this claim. The rich consistently are treated better by police and the courts. Witness Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie serving no time after 2 or 3 DUIs. I can't say the same for the poor folks around here.
So now, dear sycophants, your ignorance is on display. And I'm done with you really -- you aren't smart enough to offer me any opinion that's worth considering and changing my mind.
PS - Try spell check on your "arguement" next time before you try to point out my ignorance. Ha! |
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Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:56 am |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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Police in other cities probably have different training and procedures. If a similar situation happened in the Parkside Drive area of Flint, I'm guessing that a supervisor would have been called before any action was taken. That said, i think the officers acted as they were trained to do. Is the training at fault? Possibly. had they been equipped with Tasers, the outcome probably would have been different, but they weren't.
It's easy to analyze a situation after the fact, when there's time to go over everything that happened slowly and repeatedly. It's another matter when you're in the situation and you only have seconds to make a decision. If someone was coming at me with a knife, regardless of the size of the knife or the size and condition of that person, I'd do whatever necessary to defend myself. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:34 am |
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Demeralda
F L I N T O I D
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Dave, I am sensible of what you're saying. That's exactly why I don't want a gun -- I don't know what I'd do if I had to make a split-second decision.
I just tend to expect more from people who are confronted with the situation more often than you or I -- namely, the police.
Yes, I'm used to disappointment. LOL |
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Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:49 am |
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