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Dave Starr
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I was at the council meeting last night to support the National Block Club Coalition's stand on trash from evictions. The Council was informed that when we see piles of trash from evictions, we will be calling to report it, and will be tracking how long it takes to get it picked up and whether the property owners are fined as the ordinances call for. Before the open mike portion, there were comments on the proposed ordinance requiring the Mayor to hire a permanent Police Chief.
I'm not commenting on the ordinance, but on those that spoke. Three speakers spent over an hour, total. Did they keep an eye on their audience? The council members had obviously tuned out the speakers after a couple minutes. Most of the speakers didn't speak directly to the ordinance, but went on & on with anti-Don diatribes. Endlessly reading correspondence with the Journal, quoting endless statistics, talking so long that about 1/2 the audience got up & left doesn't help at all. Also, when you're done speaking, walking around & talking to others that spoke is rather discourteous to those trying to hear what's going on in the meeting.
Speaking for 5 minutes, and to the point is much more effective than a 30 minute rant. Speak briefly, politely, and to the point.
Also, I didn't think much of Carolyn's handling of the meeting. taking time between speakers during the open mike period to talk about a lawsuit doesn't seem like the proper application of parliamentary procedure. Bringing this up either before or after the open mike period would have been more appropriate.
Things like this are a lot of the reason more people don't attend Council meetings. Several people told me this as they were leaving. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:12 am |
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andi03
F L I N T O I D
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Isn't there a 3-5 minute time period that people are allowed to speak druing public comments? That's it, no more? And then one at the closing portion of the meeting?
After awhile, people that go on and on sound like Charlie Brown's teacher, remember? The muted-trumpet sound?  |
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Build a bridge and get over it! |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:36 am |
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Ted Jankowski
F L I N T O I D
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Hey Dave,
That's part of why there is unlimited time to speak to the issue.
That's kind of the point. That's our, (THE PEOPLE's) oppertunity to make a point! To present a case. To prepare an arguement.
I rarely speak to any "Open Mic" issues at public hearings. But, on this issue I believe it was neccessary that not only Council understand the weight on this issue. BUt, the public needs a good understanding also.
I'm sure you can tell by the responses of some on this website. That they have no clue as to what really goes on. I'm sorry, but a sound bite doesn't quite get it all the time! Persoanally, I thought I had enough SUPERFANTASTICS and ONE MILLION PERCENTS added to keep peoples attention and awake.
There is a 5 minute time limit for addressing the Council. Which I use every meeting and keep my comments within that time frame.
But, to take the position that public comment on City Ordinance adoption without allowing the community to make fully reasoned and valid arguements. Is not the right way in my opinion.
I will tell you this. Some people in attendance were appreciative that someone actually took the time to break down the whole picture. (and no they were not people in the group that I usually talk to). I'm not defending the rest. Some people went on and on dicussing things that didn't even apply. And I did catch myself once heading down one of my rabit trails. I caught it and stopped before I got going.
I can recap though if You like.
However, I believe once you understand the rules and why they are the way they are. You'll see it is the best system possible. Even if people are somtimes boring. Most fo us don't waste our time down there because we are there to entertain the audience.
I would not consider the five minutes people are allowed to address the Council an open mic. But, that's just me. I call the Public Comment about legislation open mic. Only because your allowed to speak as long as you feel neccessary (a long as you remain on point).
I thought Ms. Simms did a fine job of realing people in when they started to go off base. We haven't gotten that very much in the past.
quote:
"Things like this are a lot of the reason more people don't attend Council meetings. Several people told me this as they were leaving. "
Comments like that seem to me to be very closed minded. They were obviously there to make a point and leave. Not really concerned with wether others were receptive to what they had to say or might even want to support them. I would also call it a bit selfish. There are people that come down and speak about running for office and some that just talk about nothing. Here's the point. It's their right. I respect it wether I agree or like what they have to say.
Oh, and what was the purpose of going down to talk about reporting the garbage left at the streets? Was that just to inform them that you guys are tracking this?
Oh and when do you want to do the show? |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:06 am |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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An offstage 25ft shepards hook works well.  |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:32 am |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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Ted, my point was not what you said, but how you said it. You, and a couple others, went on so long you lost your audience.
Oh, and what was the purpose of going down to talk about reporting the garbage left at the streets? Was that just to inform them that you guys are tracking this?
We were there to inform the Council and the Administration that we want the ordinances regarding trash from evictions enforced, and the appropriate fines levied. We're sick & tired of seeing this city turned into a garbage dump. We will photograph it, notify the City, track how long it takes to get it pick up, & see if the fines are levied. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:42 am |
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Ted Jankowski
F L I N T O I D
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About the Trash... EXCELLENT! That's about all you can do. I hope it helps get something accomplished.
So now if you bring an additional ordinance to council for approval. WHen nothing happens. Will you not want to spend some more time explaining in detail why it is important. And should be enforced. Sometimes 5 minutes just doesn't cut it. And I enjoy listening to most of the information that others bring to the table. I'll be looking forward to hearing more about this from you guys. |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:55 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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Good points Dave.
I was there 30 minutes late but wish I had been an hour late.
Sad to say but I don't think some speakers know how to be to the point.
I have to admit I may have been one of the guilty "disrespectful" people but if I don't talk to anyone i don't know how I can make it through such a long arduous meeting. I try and be real quit though when I talk so as not to disturb anything.
For a 3.5 hour + meeting and uncomforatble seats you should get up and walk around a few times though.
Ted this might upset you but the mayor spoke for twice as long as you did and I thought his speech was better even without the visuals. Althought you can't get monthly crime stats if you pay attention to the Flint Journal you should have noticed murders are down dramatically. I have only heard about one shooting so shootings are probably also be down dramatically. I think you're also wrong about leadership. Marine corps leadership style can actually be catastrophic in the real world. We have even had thousands of extra U.S. tropps killed due to the marine corps leadership style that you speak so highly about although it is worth studying and thankful does work most of the time although it can lead to disaster in certain instances. |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:47 pm |
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Steve Myers
Site Admin
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Speaking as a former “Bad Land Lord” I have to take you to task on this issue, it is illegal to throw a tenants belongs into the trash or store them.
The Genesee County Sheriff Deputies are the ones issuing the eviction notice and with the help of their crew, putting the tenants belongs onto the curb.
We have to pay filing fees, court fees, fee to have the eviction notice delivered and fees to have the tenant removed from our property if needed.
Now you want me to pay yet another fee to rent a dumpster, storage unit or pay a fine?? |
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Steve Myers |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:00 pm |
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twotap
F L I N T O I D
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Anyone else notice the lack of blame being put where it belongs here. On the deadbeat tenant who quits paying his or her rental obligations.  |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:40 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Adam schreef:
Good points Dave.
Ted this might upset you but the mayor spoke for twice as long as you did and I thought his speech was better even without the visuals. Althought you can't get monthly crime stats if you pay attention to the Flint Journal you should have noticed murders are down dramatically. I have only heard about one shooting so shootings are probably also be down dramatically. I think you're also wrong about leadership. Marine corps leadership style can actually be catastrophic in the real world. We have even had thousands of extra U.S. tropps killed due to the marine corps leadership style that you speak so highly about although it is worth studying and thankful does work most of the time although it can lead to disaster in certain instances.
OK ADAM. Please point out which leadership trait would be "be catastrophic in the real world?"
JUSTICE
Definition: Justice is defined as the practice of being fair and consistent. A just person gives consideration to each side of a situation and bases rewards or punishments on merit.
JUDGMENT
Definition: Judgment is your ability to think about things clearly, calmly, and in an orderly fashion so that you can make good decisions.
DEPENDABILITY
Definition: Dependability means that you can be relied upon to perform your duties properly. It means that you can be trusted to complete a job. It is the willing and voluntary support of the policies and orders of the chain of command. Dependability also means consistently putting forth your best effort in an attempt to achieve the highest standards of performance.
INITIATIVE
Definition: Initiative is taking action even though you haven't been given orders. It means meeting new and unexpected situations with prompt action. It includes using resourcefulness to get something done without the normal material or methods being available to you.
DECISIVENESS
Definition: Decisiveness means that you are able to make good decisions without delay. Get all the facts and weight them against each other. By acting calmly and quickly, you should arrive at a sound decision. You announce your decisions in a clear, firm, professional manner.
TACT
Definition: Tact means that you can deal with people in a manner that will maintain good relations and avoid problems. It means that you are polite, calm, and firm.
INTEGRITY
Definition: Integrity means that you are honest and truthful in what you say or do. You put honesty, sense of duty, and sound moral principles above all else.
ENTHUSIASM
Definition: Enthusiasm is defined as a sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of your duties. If you are enthusiastic, you are optimistic, cheerful, and willing to accept the challenges.
BEARING
Definition: Bearing is the way you conduct and carry yourself. Your manner should reflect alertness, competence, confidence, and control.
UNSELFISHNESS
Definition: Unselfishness means that you avoid making yourself comfortable at the expense of others. Be considerate of others. Give credit to those who deserve it.
COURAGE
Definition: Courage is what allows you to remain calm while recognizing fear. Moral courage means having the inner strength to stand up for what is right and to accept blame when something is your fault. Physical courage means that you can continue to function effectively when there is physical danger present.
KNOWLEDGE
Definition: Knowledge is the understanding of a science or art. Knowledge means that you have acquired information and that you understand people. Your knowledge should be broad, and in addition to knowing your job, you should know your unit's policies and keep up with current events.
LOYALTY
Definition: Loyalty means that you are devoted to your country, the Corps, and to your seniors, peers, and subordinates. The motto of our Corps is Semper Fidelis!, (Always Faithful). You owe unwavering loyalty up and down the chain of command, to seniors, subordinates, and peers.
ENDURANCE
Definition: Endurance is the mental and physical stamina that is measured by your ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress, and hardship. For example, enduring pain during a conditioning march in order to improve stamina is crucial in the development of leadership.
Or maybe you could explain which USMC LEADERSHIP PRINICPLE would "be catastrophic in the real world?"
Know yourself and seek improvement
Be technically and tactically proficient
Know your Marines and look out for their welfare
Keep your Marines informed
Set the example
Ensure the task is understood, supervised, and accomplished
Train your Marines as a team
Make sound and timely decisions
Develop a sense of responsibility among your subordinates
Employ your command in accordance with its capabilities
Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions
Now, understand a principle is something that can be applied broadly! So you can adpot say, "Train your marines as a Team" into train your employees as a team. Or "Know your Marines and look out for their welfare" Know your employees and be conscience of their welfare". Oh and I can sure see how catastrophic it could be, to have leadership that is technically and tactically proficient.
I'm very eager to hear
COLLEGE BOY
<grin> , which of these principles and traits you think could be catastrophic if applied and used in the real world? |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:35 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
F L I N T O I D
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I can see I need to do another show on Leadership and send you a copy.  |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:37 pm |
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Dave Starr
F L I N T O I D
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quote:
Steve Myers schreef:
Speaking as a former “Bad Land Lord” I have to take you to task on this issue, it is illegal to throw a tenants belongs into the trash or store them.
The Genesee County Sheriff Deputies are the ones issuing the eviction notice and with the help of their crew, putting the tenants belongs onto the curb.
We have to pay filing fees, court fees, fee to have the eviction notice delivered and fees to have the tenant removed from our property if needed.
Now you want me to pay yet another fee to rent a dumpster, storage unit or pay a fine??
What do you do when a tenant moves and leaves the house full of trash? This has happened across the street from me twice in the past 12 months. The landlords hauled out enough trash to fill the space the width of the lot from the curb to the other side of the sidewalk. Who's responsibility is that? We were fortunate both times, in that the landlords hauled it away themselves. What about the landlords that just dump it at the curb & leave it? What about the landlords that don't care about anything except collecting the rent?
On another topic, the house next to me has been empty for over a year. Why? Someone got in & stole the water meter by breaking off the pipe coming through the basement wall from the street. The woman that owns it, who lives in Detroit BTW, said it was the tenants responsibility to get the pipe repaired. She was informed that it was HER responsibility to take care of it, which she said she won't do. So, the house will sit there empty for 10 years or so until it is destroyed or torn down. |
_________________
I used to care, but I take a pill for that now.
Pushing buttons sure can be fun.
When a lion wants to go somewhere, he doesn’t worry about how many hyenas are in the way.
Paddle faster, I hear banjos. |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:12 pm |
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Adam
F L I N T O I D
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I have an issue where a marine must pretty much always follow orders/their leader. If a lower ranking marine asserts "leadership" and disobeys a command that can be cause for imprisonment. Yes most of the time that makes sense but 1% of the time that can mean lives lost.
In addition, I guess I have an issue with every single point you made because they are all subjective.
Also since your points are subjective a case could be made for people like Adolf Hitler being great "leaders".
Another problem with your vision of Leadership is with it being subjective you might think you are a great leader because you meat all the points I might think you meet few of the points and are a bad leader.
In addition you failed to mention communication.
I also disagree with tact. Sugarcoating things is not always the best option. |
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Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:51 pm |
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Ted Jankowski
F L I N T O I D
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LOL, OK Adam, Where do you get your view of the USMC? TV?
YEs you do follow orders. But, there is no rule that you must follow blindly. You are to use good judgement. You do not have to follow an unlawful order. There is no way a Marine or any military person can be given an order to Rape, Piliage and Plunder. So when Some Marines of Lower rank alowed those of Higher Rank to do so without saying or doing anything. THey were also held accountable. There was one incident that closely matches the idea. NOt neccessarily that circumstance. The Arguement I was order to do it. It not a valid arguement is all's I'm saying.
Principles are subjective. But that doesn't mean they cannot be understood. They are what they are. Principles and concepts that can be understood. What here is subjective? Let's look at the one you take issue with. TACT
Definition: Tact means that you can deal with people in a manner that will maintain good relations and avoid problems. It means that you are polite, calm, and firm. Where in this defination and explaination do you find the meaning sugarcoat? I see nothing there that could possibly missinterpet as sugarcoating. Unless you don't understand the trait. Classes are available.
All great leaders fail in one or two aspects. Some are just really great at a few. But the few they are great at. Gives them the intiative and knowledge to have subborndinates that are better in the areas that they are week in. Carnegie Dale said in his book how to win friends and inflence people. He doesn't have to be the smartest or most brilliant person in the room to be successful. He just surounds himself with people you are better than he is in particular areas.
Usually a bad leader will fail at more than just one or two.
Where did I fail to mention communication? DECISIVENESS , tact, bearing, ENTHUSIASM, then there is Keep your Marines informed Ensure the task is understood, supervised, and accomplished. Those all deal with communication.
KNowing and undstanding the principle is easy. It's sometimes hard to live. Set the Example! Take responsibility for your actions.
Adam, I don't see how you missed these? |
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Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:53 am |
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Demeralda
F L I N T O I D
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Sorry, but Marine Corps style leadership is BAD. It's bad for innovative thinking, for one -- it's looking for blind compliance. Adam is right, by and large; unless the leader gives an order that is CRIMINAL, no matter how bad the decision, they have to follow it! That does not encourage independent judgment.
Good leadership can come in all shapes, sizes, philosophies, and yes, even misguided ones. David Koresh was a good leader, insofar as he convinced his people to stick it out with him.
The morality of the leadership and the effectiveness of the leadership are two entirely different things.
Some people are motivated by tact, some are not. I've had some very tactful bosses who were snakes, and I'd never believe him/her to be a good leader per se.
I read yesterday in the NY Times that people often associate good leadership with having OPTIONS. And yet some people do better when they have no choice. They cited an example of a Chinese military leader who, upon arriving in the land he intended to conquer, burned their ships (no retreat) and dumped their rations or something (desperation will move us forward). They were mad, but it worked! He was one of the most effective leaders of his time (sorry, name escapes me).
So really this is all a subjective discussion based in semantics.
I will say, though, that Williamson is nothing close to a leader whatsoever, and even less close to being a "good" leader. Not that I'm even sure at this point what generated this discussion... |
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Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:25 pm |
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